The other is a cheaper thing, but the moths get into it.

Electricity is of two kinds, positive and negative.  The difference is, I presume, that one comes a little more expensive, but is more durable; the other is a cheaper thing, but the moths get into it.   Stephen Leacock

I have been thinking about how we can help students put powerful thinking into the comment boxes of their fellow student blog posts. 

I want them to think about the comments they make in more than "Blog commenting is of two kinds, positive and negative." terms. To avoid polarising their thinking about blog comments into "a little more expensive" comments versus “lets the moths get in” blog comments.

In my ever burgeoning bloglines account I enjoy reading bloggers who disallow comments altogether – but whilst I admire the purity of their motive, and their ability to write without needing the frottage effect of other blogger’s rubbing themselves up against the post with trembling cries of “great post”, “insightful”, “I agree” stuff, I just know it wouldn’t work for me.

The comments from others encourage me to blog post  just as much as all the ideas restlessly jostling in my mind

I love the feedback.  I need the attention that comments provide, and I need the challenge.  I’m embarrassed to admit that I’m not as discerning as I'd like to be when it comes to blog comment.  I don’t care whether it is valorising, condemnatory or tangential comment – it all belongs – it all builds texture around the original flawed thinking. I do love the new ideas and new thinking that challenging comments bring, but I keep them all.   –  Only the odd spam comment is denied permanent residence at Artichoke. 

I wondered if blogging really is “conversation”

For instance, Cluetrain Manifesto guru David Weinberger states that "blogs are not a new form of journalism nor do they primarily consist of teenagers whining about their teachers. Blogs are not even primarily a form of individual expression. They are better understood as conversations." Cited in Geert Lovink Blogging, the nihilist impulse

Then perhaps we could use a simple self assessment rubric based on communication to help student bloggers comment on other's posts.

I tried to combine Dr Janice Orrell’s Communication Skills Rubric with bits of Bonk and Kim’s 12 forms of electronic mentoring and assistance  aligned to Structure overview of learning outcomes SOLO Taxonomy -

I've come up wanting tonight ... but the rubric can only improve with time

Draft Rubric for Making Durable Blog Comments

SOLO Extended Abstract Level Blog Comment

Balances blog reading and responding.
Can synthesizes what has been read in the blog post and makes comments that evaluate or elaborate  to others ideas offering alternative perspectives

Includes encouraging Articulation/Dialogue Prompting/ Reflection
"I am interested in what you think is  the real problem here...?,""Can you justify this? "What do you predict might happen as a result” Can you imagine any other outcomes?” What if ...?  “Do you think it is possible  that ?  "Do you have an alternative to this situation?," "Can you give me three good reasons why...," "It still seems like something is missing here, ...?

SOLO Relational Blog Comment

Blog comments communicate most effectively and explain ideas clearly.
Can actively read the blog posts of others and respond appropriately, reflecting a personal understanding of the blogger  viewpoint expressed.

Includes Cognitive Elaborations/Explanations/  Push to Explore:
"Please clarify what you mean by...," " In contrast to this might be...," “What is similar to this” "What else do you think is  important here...? ," " "How is this related to...?," “What do you think led to this?” "You might want to  email  'XYZ' for...,"

SOLO Multistructural Level Comment

Blog comments communicate ideas and relates sensitively to others.
Can read blog posts respond to them.

Includes Questioning/ Modelling examples/
"What do you call this idea...?," "Another reason for this might be...?," "An example of this is...," I'm just not sure what you mean by...," "I think I solved this sort of problem once when I...,"

SOLO Unistructural Level Blog Comment

Limited blog reading and commenting skills.

Includes social and cognitive acknowledgement/ Simple feedback and praise
Hi...," "I agree with everything said so far...," "Wow, what a post…," "This post certainly has got people talking..," " " I'm impressed great writing...,"

SOLO Prestructural Level Blog Comment

Poor blog reading and commenting skills accompanied by a lack of self-awareness of impact of  comments on others.

“This writing sucks.” “Are you going to J’s place after school? “ “Why would anyone want to read this?” "Duh..."

UPDATE  6 September 2007

Thanks for all the ideas about this, and apologies for persevering with something that in the wrong hands may well turn out to be a joysucker BUT this version of the self assessment blog comment rubric may be a little less "mothy"

What is missing from this rubric thinking - and what may ultimately make it a pursuit of red herrings is that all levels of comment are important in conversation be it F2F or within a blog  - the texture of the initial post is enhanced by the collective comments offered so looking at them individually may be flawed.

Self Assessment Blog Commenting Rubric (Draft 2)

Dr Janice Orrell’s  (2003)Communication Skills Rubric framed as Blog Comment with explanation and example from SOLO Taxonomy

SOLO Extended Abstract Blog Comment

Blog comment balances blog reading and responding.
Can synthesize what has been read in the blog post and makes comments that evaluate or elaborate to others ideas offering alternative perspectives

E.g Blog comment includes taking linked ideas from the original post into other contexts through : generalisation, evaluation, analogy, prediction, imagine, judgement, speculation, if/then, hypothesise, forecast, idealise

SOLO Relational Level Blog Comment

Blog comments communicate most effectively and explain ideas clearly.
Can actively read the blog posts of others and respond appropriately, reflecting a personal understanding of the blogger viewpoint expressed.

E.g Blog comment links ideas from the original post through: sequencing, classification, comparison and contrast, causal explanation, analysis (part whole), clarification, inference, reason

SOLO Multistructural Level Blog Comment

Blog comments communicate ideas and relates sensitively to others.
Can read blog posts respond to them.

E.g Blog comment includes several ideas from the original post through: statements that define, describe, identify,

SOLO Unistructural Level Blog Comment

Limited blog reading and commenting skills.

E.g Blog comment includes one idea from the original post

SOLO Prestructural Level Blog Comment

Poor blog reading and commenting skills accompanied by a lack of self-awareness of impact of  comments on others.

E.g Blog comment makes no reference to the ideas in the original post

Download blog_commenting_rubric.pdf

Comments

[Stephen Downes]

None of these forms matches any comment that I would typically make.

The continuation of a conversation isn't (typically) a prompt, such as the questioning style responses you outline.

It is the expression of an opinion, such as I am doing here, which either extends the thought expressed in the original post, or corrects that thought.

As such, these comments can be classified (if absolutely necessary; I am no fan of pointless taxonomies) by identifying the logical form of the response.

The corrections may be identifications of errors of fact or completeness (as this one is), or identifications of errors of inference (for example, identification of a logical fallacy).

The extensions may include the adducing of additional examples, completion of descriptions, suggestions of explanations, or drawing of inferences, clarification of meanings of key terms.

[Janet Clarey]

Blog comments of value [taking out the post-rubbers, a statement I like] often seem to start with phrases like...
I think...
At the same time...
Maybe it's also...
I'm not sure I agree...
[what you say] is interesting to contemplate but...
I'd say another thing is...

They are conversations, opinions, and thought-provoking statements and also frequently provide additional resources.

I understand that there is often a need for a rubric to help students understand how they will be evaluated. A grading rubric from a master's class I took reflected the following about (online) courseroom participation. The online courseroom was a discussion forum facilitated by the instructor and (based on my personal experience in classes at the particular institution) resemble a blog. Perhaps some of this will be helpful.

{studey} Initial response:

Integration and synthesis of concepts and principles in the initial response:

The response refers to course materials and reflects an understanding of fundamental principles. Irrelevant comments are excluded. Competencies are addressed and ideas are creatively synthesized.

Excellent: ___.
Satisfactory: ___.
Unsatisfactory: ___.

Applications, personal and professional examples in the initial response:

The response addresses professional and personal examples, while at the same time integrating the answer with the course materials. Applications use course concepts correctly and insightfully.

Excellent: ___.
Satisfactory: ___.
Unsatisfactory:__.

Appropriate citations in the initial response:

The response references course resources to support assertions of fact and theoretical insights. Opinions are clearly labeled; opinions are held to a minimum unless the question requests the learner to discuss personal reactions or feelings.

Excellent: ___.
Satisfactory: __.
Unsatisfactory:__.

Writing standards in the initial response:

The writing is clear, concise, and easy to understand. Terminology is used correctly, and the response is coherent.

Excellent: ___.
Satisfactory: ___.
Unsatisfactory:__.

Timeliness in the initial response:

The response is submitted on or before the due date.

Excellent: ___.
Satisfactory: ___.
Unsatisfactory:_.

Response to another learner:

Integration and synthesis of concepts and principles in the response to another learner:

The other learner’s concerns and ideas are addressed. When appropriate, the response refers to course materials and reflects an understanding of fundamental principles. When appropriate, the response addresses the other learner’s feelings or perceptions. Irrelevant comments are excluded.

Excellent: ___.
Satisfactory: ___.
Unsatisfactory: ___.

Writing standards in the response to another learner:

The writing is clear, concise, and easy to understand. Terminology is used correctly, and the response is coherent.

Excellent: ___.
Satisfactory: ___.
Unsatisfactory: ___.

Timeliness in the response to another learner:

The response is submitted on or before the due date.

Excellent: ___.
Satisfactory: ___.
Unsatisfactory: ___.

I think it's important that comments are timely - especially in a class that is offered during a particular time. This is somewhat true in the blogosphere. While we can go back and comment on old posts, the majority of responses - conversations - happen shortly after a post. Quality of writing I think is important as is citing someone else's work.

I often found that a thought provoking responses early in the course by the professor set the bar for the remainder of the course.

Perhaps one way to expose them to expensive comments - and the "other kind" - so they'll just see it. I'm rambling this morning...hope some of this is helpful.

[Artichoke]

Perfect challenge/s Stephen and Janet - the Bonk and Kim mentoring stuff doesn't fit well here as Stephen identifies because it refers to a particular type of exchange in electronic mentoring environments rather than a full conversation per se - its emphasis on triggers and prompts seems misaligned - And I also agree about the dangers of imposing taxonomies Stephen - I'm just hunting for a structure to help young studenst think better about what they write in response - and this one seems to have great inter rater reliability with kids - doesn't mean its valid though

Thanks for you ideas Janet -I'm not after grading comments as such - just developing a framework that students could use to develop their critical and creative response to blogs - we use a number of scaffolds to help students with dialogue in school - similar to the approaches used in the InterLoc game - http://www.interloc.org/ with openers and replies - and I suspect that these are going to give me more leverage to help students with blog commenting - some of your identifiers could well be adapted into this to help students clarify their response to and questions for their peers

And your responses are exactly why I love comments - thanks

[Cherrie]

heh. Commenting on a blog that critiques commenting.
RUN AWAY!!!

Commenting probably takes as much time and thought as writing a regular post, if not more... to me, anyway.

Just wondering - if you had to choose between writing posts and commenting (on other people's blogs and 'continuing the conversation' - what would you choose?

And also - do you usually read all the 'other' comments on other people's blogs before you make your comment? Is that supposed to be an interesting phenomenon - where the 'dialogue' is transparent and open, but people are mainly concerned with their own pseudo-private, pseudo-personal conversation with the blog owner/writer? It's similar with lots of other things like walls (Facebook), etc. Hahah scotoma formation at its best.

Oh, also - how do you explain what a blog is to someone who thinks its an online journal?

[lucychili]

Sometimes a blog is an online journal?
In the same way some books are personal diaries.
Its just a means to get text out there so the purposes can be quite diverse? Some folks use them for posting creative writing projects.
Some folks use them as idea exchange. Sometimes the conversations drift between blog and email and face to face conversations.

I think they are usually subjective, but sometimes are collections of material on a topic and may not be commented by the aggregating person.
The selection is probably subjective.

Sometimes they are written collectively by more than one blogger.
Sometimes the comments are important to the flow of thoughts.
Lessigs blog used to be extensively commented when he was writing on commons. Will be interesting to see what changes with the corruption focus.

http://www.groups.edna.edu.au/mod/wiki/view.php?id=29519&page=Writing
is a scale from a wiki on grades 3-5 literacy.
(Yes I realise an image with text in a wiki like this is craziness)
Blogs are a flow.
Some are intermittent.
Some have a pulse.

Social skills or etiquette around blogging is probably the cultural knowledge which is building around this tool as a kind of usual exchange or value or trade. Things like if your blog is aggregated to a themed planet its thoughtful to keep that blog close to the purpose of the planet. Some folks are into link love where the connections between people are a kind of value. Some people follow specific kinds of conversations. Some browse on keywords. Some feed from specific blogs.

Because of the diversity I think its probably handy to have a conversation about how the audience figures what kind of blog you are, and then how that impacts their investment in your site, how they use it.
Writing style, amount of effort in each post, speed, regularity, focus, references. This is like the information on the poster before you buy the theatre ticket or magazine subscription. And as soon as we do that someone is going to be writing bendy blogs which mix all of those purposes and do it well. So perhaps for an audience the challenge is to appreciate the context they respond in.

[lucychili]

you probably need a category for folks who comment too much or in one thought at a time.

why does education need to scope and define all possible outcomes? i understand the systemic interest in value for money, but i wonder if defining the expected outcomes is part of the assumption that teacher knows all which is part if the discussion about change and social skills in new contexts.
how do you value unexpected excellence in a rubric?
how do you build when someone has made an excellent contribution given their own starting language skills, NESB, limited access to web time. it is possibly exactly at this 'measuring the good' bit that things lose their adaptability and room to aspire for things unthought of?

[Artichoke]

Cherrie - your comments would fit the blog comment rubric at extended abstract again and again and again - you read and form generalisations, predictions, evaluate, infer and reflect on what you read - PLUS your comments always drive me to google stuff - I thought scotoma might be the breed name for one of those Paris Hilton like small dogs

And it doesn't surprise me to find out that they take a little time to write

I you had to choose between writing posts and commenting (on other people's blogs and 'continuing the conversation' - what would you choose? is a tricky question - I have been captured by the conversation on others blogs and not felt the need to blog anything at all on Artichoke - it depends how interested I am I guess and how challenged I am by the exchange

But as for "do you usually read all the 'other' comments on other people's blogs before you make your comment?" well I do read them but then I find that I usually respond to the original post - they are usually the ideas that capture my attention - always exceptions to this - I wonder what that says - am I mainly concerned with my own pseudo-private, pseudo-personal conversation with the blog owner/writer?

I find the hierarchical thread of blog commently highly frustrating - I much prefer to be able to choose where I stick the comment in the sequence - on Artichoke and on others blogs

- is why I suspect that blogging with commenting is not really conversation per se

A little like electricity is not really something that the moths get into

[lucychili]

Jo McCleay on students and writing
http://theopenclassroom.blogspot.com/2007/07/readers-and-writers.html

[Doug Noon]

And sometimes a blog post can be used as the set-up for an elegant one-liner.

[Artichoke]

Outrageous calumny Doug ...and an insight that indicates we have been reading each others thinking for a long time ...

[ailsa]

stunning simply stunning. i am in awe. i agree with lucychilli running away would seem a wiser option. But being somewhat foolish I will respond anyway. To blog is not just to 'talk aloud' its to enter into a conversation- always with oneself but also- at least for me- its an open conversation, for perusal, and comment. Seems talking to oneself is virtually acceptable. To grade blogging on what is and isnt there- thats the rub, because teachers (lecturers) cant see learning unless its made visible, so there is a tendency to move, push, shove, massage the learning, force it to be visible, and in doing this (wrongly) assumes that what is shown is learning made measurable. No quiet reflections allowed.
I think this risks sucking the fun out of it, dont say this too loud or too often!
Have you considered peer review by bebo poll? (Thinks this comment should get me a mark above unsatisfactory, heh?)

[Artichoke]

Hi Ailsa,
Thanks for having the intellectual coutrage to engage!

One of the issues that is arising with the different responses to this rubric is educational context

We work with quite young kids in New Zealand we commonly create literacy strategies (scaffolds if you like) to help them learn how to do stuff -so we do help them with scaffolding written responses, formal writing, persuasive writing, report writing etc - I was trying to see if a self assessment rubric could help them craft blog comments

It was designed as self assessment rather than teacher assesment.

Self assessment rubrics play an important role in helping students think about where they are and how they might improve their writing and thinking. A bit like that SEX acronym we used when explaing - with it Statement - Explanation - eXample

I didn’t elaborate on the SOLO bit in the draft - it was first stage thinking only - but it forms an essential part of the other self assessment rubrics we use with kids I think it helps explain the qualitative nature of this one better than the Bonk and Kim examples do

A unistructural multistructural blog comment response would one that simply brought in ideas - the define, list, label, name, describe, identify - kind of stuff

A relational blog comment response links these ideas - a response that puts ideas in a sequence, classifies, makes comparisons, determines causes, analyses - (part whole)- explanation stuff

An extended abstract response would take these linked ideas into another context - form generalisations, evaluate, imagine something new, form predictions, include personal reflections, justify, create something new - - the discussion stuff

Which means you could well self assess your response as being both courageous and at extended abstract level - trust this has not sucked too much joy from the experience

And peer review is interesting but I'd want them to use SOLO rubrics on their posted reviews - ha

I am once again in the middle of milestone reporting -which explains my predilection with measurement rather than whimsy in recent posts - will recover soon

[SC]

Artichoke, you fill me with blog envy. You facilitate spirited discussion where ideas are thrown around, inverted, pixilated, translated, and it times even body slammed. The sign of a truly great blog!
Then I reflected on our humble little effort, and ask myself, as I have done a few times- ‘why bother?’ The original idea seemed feasible: to use technology to bring teachers from 12 schools to discuss and reflect on an idea we were trying out.
I started off with 15 people on the mailing list, who suffer the inconvenience of yet another email filling their inbox everytime I post a new article.(Primitve, I know) Over the last 18months, if anyone dared to breath a modicum interest, or I suspected it would be useful to have them ‘in-the-invisible-loop’, they too were added to ‘the list’. At present there are 49 on ‘the list’. Including people in Regional Office , Scotland and USA.
But as that little voice from life-lessons learnt elsewhere keeps reminding me ‘size does not matter!’
But the comments are confusing me- if this is data then almost nobody reads the blog- except maybe 5 or 6 people. There haven’t been long threads of discussions reflecting and debating whats working and whats not. Maybe the posts aren’t enciting that level of conversation. My hunch the ‘blogger-ban’ that exists in Victorian Government schools, certainly doesn’t help the situation.
Government policy encourages developing learning communities. Here’s one on a plate, but my ego suspects people are time poor (or not interested) in participating. In reality they probably don’t give a stuff. (I feel like I'm morphing into Woody Allen)
Perhaps its just an exercise in self-indulgance? Perhaps not.
Theres something about our blog I believe in, yet am having trouble articulating what exactly it is.
Its not a ‘new-thought-new-evolving-idea-type-of-blog’. Not yet anyway. Its more a ‘heres-whats-happening-heres-an-update-type-of blog’ Is it a ‘pop-culture’ type of blog?
An e-newsletter type of thing, that serves a purpose of facilitating connectedness amongst small isolated rural school communities. Maybe.
So, I reconcile in myself that as an educator that’s what I do best. I cant enforce learning or participation, I can only provide opportunity to engage. And that’s one of the things our blog is- an opportunity to engage. What happens after a post is in the lap of the gods.
(Hmmmmm. I’m not completely satisfied with that definition either.)
Theres something about documentation, that my unconscious educational psyches knows has value. Our blog was there at the start of the journey. It was one of the true believers. It cant be accused of being a Johnny-cum-lately. If anyone questions the validity of our project, or wants to know anything about it- I just say “Have you checked out the blog”.
There’s something invisible about the benefit of our blog. I just cant see it:YET

[ailsa]

i concede, assessment drives learning, sometimes learning is intrinsic sometimes its external.

[lucychili]

for folks who are interested in new traffic it might be worth joining the dreaded facebook. it has some plugins which help you view blogs of friends and blogs of friends of friends, which sometimes takes you where you might not have otherwise.

another question might be whether the blog serves a purpose for the authors as well as the audience. i have one blog which is basically a public bookmark file. somewhere to dig back through like delicious when i am looking for something specific to stick in a post i am finally writing.
i think artichoke has a good pulse to her blog.
a week is long enough for having a good think about a question and also long enough that you want to read the next bit of whimsy with teeth.

[lucychili]

via talo
http://ucspace.canberra.edu.au/display/7125/Online+Engagement

[Cherrie]

Yeah someone should write an app where you mouse over certain words or sentences (or pictures or videos or audio, etc, etc)in a blog entry and you get bubbles of comments and how they relate to each other. I dunno... I'm thinking it could work - mousing over (or some sort of signal and clicking) anything on a page and getting a bubble of connected ideas/blogs/links from blog readers/commenters. Having something graphical like that would certainly help me engage with other people's commments, since I have the attention span of a goldfish and seeing words/pics/vids/etc floating around would entice me.

Maybe.

Maybe it already exists.

If other people who commented on your blog had a linked profile and/or website (with a bit of info about themselves, or some way of me getting a glimpse of how they think), then I'd be more likely to read their comments, I think. I don't know if it makes me a snob, or just a busy person who needs to select what she reads...the internet has certainly honed in on my skimming skills...I used to be so impressed with teachers' skimming skills...

On that note,
1) why is Facebook "dreaded"
2) why does "assessment drive learning"? Is it a specific case of gratification?...or is everything specific cases of gratification. Argh crap. I've reduced the argument to meaninglessness again.

Oh, thanks for the nice score on the rubric, though I'm not sure I like being assessed on my blogging skills - entries or comments - maybe for the same hard-to-describe reasons as why I gave up Art as a "formal subject", even though I also got nice scores there. *shrug*

[SC]

Artichoke, I’m stuck!
I had a discussion earlier today where diametrically opposed opinions jostled and jousted. And I’m none the wiser.
We have in Australia the AIM tests results- some state wide testing that gives every kid a number of how they rank against their chronological age and state averages.
The ‘average’ in yr9 is 4.9. This year 9 kid rated 5.6. In yr7 she rated 5.0. So in yr 7 she was higher than the yr9 average.
Our cluster educator argued our school has let her down because she has not progressed much since yr7.
I’m not so sure. She’s still ahead (whatever that means). I argued it’s a non-sensical argument that just because you’re 3 years in advance at the end of primary school- that you will maintain that imaginary advantage for the rest of your life. Only to be told that’s a convenient argument secondary school teachers use. Hmmmm.
Whats your spin on this one??
This data reliance is starting to worry me……………bigtime!?!

[Artichoke]

I am not in any way qualified to spin on this one SC - despite my recent enthusiasm for measuring anything that moves in education - but your question has certainly got me thinking

I'd tilt at your take on the situation - it is how I would argue - but it doesn't come from any reliable or valid source, just "considered plausible" stuff

I don't know but I have always imagined that cognitive development was more likely to be uneven than sequential/ or evenly incremental. I can think of dozens of kids whose achievements only began to reveal themselves when they struck a teacher or subject they loved - and others who showed early promise in reading for example and then hit a plateau whilst other who started slow overtook them

Given the many variables in test design - what are we actually measuring - and the complexity of factors affecting testee performance I reckon it would be reckless to draw too many conclusions from this data - for example I have seen kids anxious over starting secondary school completing PAT tests in the start up weeks that place them in the 30th percentile - only to see them achieve in the 90th percentile when they sit the tests again the next year in a more settled state. I never for an instant imagined that we had added any value.

I'll send you something cj shared that helped me think about assessment and how little it communicates when you try to do comparisons